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December 20, 2007

Comments

Allen

Thank goodness someone had the courage to challenge the outrageous claims of the pope.
Vynette has exhibited an honesty in Religious matters that is refreshing especially when the church has known for 1800 years that there never was a prophecy that a virgin would conceive.
Stated bluntly, Vynette is right and the pope is wrong - and the church knows it and those protestants who follow the doctrines of the Roman Church instead of "feeding his sheep" are starving the flock of their proper spiritual nourishment.
We need another reformation to extract the daughters of Rome from the clutches of false doctrine and from their numerous lies, some of which Vynette has identified, concerning God's anointed not what the Church attests to.

MrMeaner

Hello Vynette!
While I doubt we'll ever agree on the virgin birth, I totally agree about God's sons and daughters. The way I read it, we are all literally sons of God.
However, Christ was the only "begotten" son. As I'm sure you know, (as you seem quite familiar with scripture) that word begotten is a compund Greek word composed of monos(only, alone, one) + genomai( broadly means "come to be", but is also used to signify completion or fulfilled, to be finished, etc.)
Of course this raises the question of what it means to be the "only finished" son.

And I agree that as the only (or first, if you prefer) begotten son, he is the only that has resurrected. I'd add that he is the only entity who could have been the first begotten. I believe that this was decided before what we call "the creation".
But Elijah and Moses were both transgifured. It is recorded that the YHVH buried Moses'. Elijah was "taken up".
They appeared, tranfigured and spoke with Christ.
Also Enoch was "translated that he should not see death".
Question:
What is the difference between Christ and the others, other than Christ having been crucified and resurrected? I'm just curious if you and I would answer this question the same way.

Nice site, BTW
#8^)

MrMeaner

"the same way as I"

is what that should have read

MrMeaner

'Scuse me.
My wine goggles are a little foggy right now.
I guess I had it right the first time.

Allen

Christianity is not the only religion in human history to proclaim that their saviour or demigod was resurrected from the grave.
The claim of a deity who has defeated the grip of death is one of the most common themes embedded in the plethora of religions that have emerged since time immemorial. The claim of a divine saviour who is born of a virgin birth, suffers a brutal death, and ascends to heaven was so very common among pagan and Gnostic religions during the first century CE; this was especially true for the regions around Tarsus, Paul's hometown.
Mythologies throughout the Roman Empire and beyond contained widespread beliefs that notable mortals and god-men were born of virgins and returned from the dead. See accounts of Romulus, Apollonius of Tyana, Drusilla, Claudius, Dionysus-Bacchus, Tammuz-Adonis, Mithra, Osiris, Krishna, and Buddha. Of course this is all mythological nonsense but when applied to “Jesu Christ” takes on the virtue of truth.
The only rational conclusion that one can draw from to all this is that the evidence clearly shows contemporary Christianity as fundamentally no different from other ancient pagan religions.

vynette

Welcome to my blog Mr_Meaner. I've addressed a couple of points you raised on the World on the Web blog.

I still have guests staying for Christmas so I hope you'll understand if I only address your question briefly. We can go into greater depth in future.

What is the difference between Jesus and other 'translated' or 'transfigured' men?

The major difference is that Jesus is an "anointed" - the others were not.

Now, it is 8am here, and I think I can hear my guests beginning to stir so please continue to ask me questions?

MrMeaner

Hmmm.
Let me approach this from another angle.What was special about the entity that was Jesus, that he would be chosen as the annointed one?

Allen

Mr_Meaner.
Jesus of Nazareth is an authentic anchor in a weltering sea of unrealistic, unintelligent and potentially demonic religiously uniformed dreams. The real Jesus is a reality check. He discourages self-indulgence and pandering. He represents the end of apologetic posturing and evasion. He demands honesty and candour, and when this is understood and accepted, only then will his real vocation displace the contrived vocation assigned to him by the early church and by its descendents.
The real vocation of Jesus was determined because God “choose Jesus from amongst the people” and so “The Lord rewarded (him) me according to (his) my righteousness; according to the cleanness of (his) my hands he recompensed (him) me, for I have kept the ways of the Lord, and have not wickedly departed from my God” and for this reason God anointed him, not because he had to comply to some mythological formulation existing in the minds of men enculturated in pagan mythologies - such as virgin birth, trinitarian formulations, pre-existence and so on.

vynette

Mr_Meaner,

Jesus was chosen and anointed because -

"Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated wickedness: Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee With the oil of gladness above thy fellows." (Psalm 45:7)

Hebrews 1:9 quotes this description of a man anointed above his fellows as being fulfilled in Jesus and yet the surrounding verses are often used as doctrinal proof texts. A moment's glance at the Psalm from which this quote is taken should convince us otherwise. Indeed an unbiased reading of all the 'messianic' Psalms quoted in the New Testament as being fulfilled in Jesus will forever sweep away the gentile theologies of Christendom; will exchange conflicts and doubts for certainties.

MrMeaner

Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated wickedness: Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee With the oil of gladness above thy fellows." (Psalm 45:7)

When would you say that the entity known as Jesus was chosen as the annointed one?
During his flesh life, or before?
If you say during his life, then are you saying that Jesus was a common man, like any other?
Or was he chosen before, and made "a little lower than the angels", and crowned with glory and honor?(Psalms 8:5)

The comments to this entry are closed.

Tomlinson

  • "For that ye strove in neighbour love, it shall be written fair, But now ye wait at Heaven's Gate and not in Berkeley Square, Though we called your friend from his bed this night, he could not speak for you, For the race is run by one and one and never by two and two." Rudyard Kipling

Attributions

  • For Deborah 1963-2003
    "full of grace and truth"
  • And for T.M.Wixted 1889-1958
  • Certain material on this weblog has been adapted from works by E.P.Wixted, including The Race is Run.