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May 19, 2006

Comments

TomK.

The doctrine of "virgin birth" is the great lie that unites the disparate sects and denominations of Christendom - regardless of their being either unitarian or trinitarian.
It is also the Achilles' Heel which will be their undoing.
The closer the doctrine of "virgin birth" is analysed, the apparently strong points become the weak links which cause it to unravel.
Take for example Mary's question to Gabriel in Luke 1:34.
This simple question by Mary has been infinately humbugged by the theologians.
Those who shout loudest about Jesus being born of a "virgin" have the least understanding of the Hebrew idiom in which the Old Testament was written.

Jody

TomK: 1) You're saying a belief in Christ as Savior is not the belief that unites Christendom?

2) Also note that citing Luke 1:34 works against Vynette's thesis rather than supporting as you suppose.

As I commmented when I first became aware of her effort (http://raceisrun.typepad.com/weblog/2006/05/the_gauntlet_is.html)

"If you were arguing that only "unreliable" verses or mistranslated verses are the sources of these doctrines or that they were demonstrably false, you would at least have a defensible (though wrong) argument. But to assert that these doctrines aren't supported biblically ("There is no biblical basis") is just nuts."

Thus claiming a misunderstood Hebrew idiom actually damages Vynette's thesis (as it currently stands) as you have cited a biblical basis for the belief. A misunderstood or mistranslated basis does not satisfy the claims of the thesis (there is no biblical basis) as it gives a biblical basis.

Repeating Vynette's thesis again (the asteriks below are mine):

"There is no *biblical* basis for the doctrines of 'Miraculous Incarnation' (Virgin Birth), 'Trinity', or Transubstantiation'.

There is no *biblical* basis for the various teachings about the 'divinity' of Jesus of Nazareth.

There is no *biblical* basis for the teachings concerning 'heaven' and 'hell'."

Jack Rich

Jack, your comments will be addressed: see Concerning Comments category.

Vynette
............

Some of us Christians are not wedded to the virgin birth story. The original word in Isaiah 7:14 is ha'almah, lit. "the young woman." Hebrew has a different word for a virgin: betoolah.

In the culture of the Near East during Isaiah's prophecies, and, during Jesus' incarnation, a "young woman" would have been synonymous with "virgin." At least in polite company...

As for the genealogies, these were to establish that the Saviour sprang from "the root of Jesse" (Isaiah 11:10), i.e. from the Davidic line.

Yes, since God is Jesus' father, Jesus is Davidic only by adoption by Joseph -- which is what happened according to Scripture. And thus Jesus would, by the norms of the time, be considered to be descended from David as if he were "of the blood."

TomK

Jody, YOUR words “… belief in Christ as Saviour …” can mean anything to anybody!
Therefore I do not comment in order not to diverted.

Re Luke 1:34:
AFTER Mary was told by Gabriel “you SHALL CONCEIVE in your womb and bring forth a son” (so obviously Mary was not yet pregnant) she asked the simple question
“How shall this be seeing I do not know a man?”

The question was simple and specific.

It had absolutely NOTHING to do with having or not having sexual relationships.
It had EVERYTHING to do with two things;

First – Mary was betrothed to Joseph who was of a genealogical line cursed by God through the Prophet Jeremiah NEVER again to sit on David’s throne.

Second – Mary was a “suggenes” (blood relation) to Elizabeth the mother of John the Baptist. Elizabeth was “of the daughters of Aaron”. That makes Mary the mother of Jesus a LEVITE.
Mary could see the difficult position she was apparently in.
Thus she asked the most mundane question “ How shall this be seeing I do not know (as to be aware of) a man?”

And of course remember that it is a total fallacy that 2,000 years ago the Jews were awaiting a “virgin born” Messias.

I repeat : The doctrine of virgin birth is the great lie upon which ALL the organized sects and denominations of Christendom are united. It is their Achilles’ Heel!

TomK

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Tomlinson

  • "For that ye strove in neighbour love, it shall be written fair, But now ye wait at Heaven's Gate and not in Berkeley Square, Though we called your friend from his bed this night, he could not speak for you, For the race is run by one and one and never by two and two." Rudyard Kipling

Attributions

  • For Deborah 1963-2003
    "full of grace and truth"
  • And for T.M.Wixted 1889-1958
  • Certain material on this weblog has been adapted from works by E.P.Wixted, including The Race is Run.